Training to the pack
#1
Any tips or tricks for getting them used to the pack? I usually introduce new things while they are eating but would love to hear others' advice!
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Anna and Co.
Thunder Mountain Central Asian Shepherd Dogs
Working Livestock Guardian & Personal Protection Dogs
https://www.facebook.com/ThunderMountain...epherdDogs
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#2
With a well bonded, tame goat I usually show them the saddle, place it a few times on the back without closing the cinch, then closing the cinch and let them walk around a bit.

Same with the pack: empty panniers: showing them, putting them to the saddle, walking around. Then adding load.

Last year I started a very, very shy goat to packing resp. the packing evolved out of training him with positive reinforcement to accept being handled by humans without restraining him. He developed so well that I thought about introducing the saddle which he accepted.

But by that time I had reinforced too much that he orients to my hand as a target so he wasn't able to stand still for the saddling process. I had to therefore split down the saddling into very small steps which I documented on video.

So what you can watch will seem very slow going and it is. Because the training goal wasn't to get the saddle on the goat. I knew that he could already tolerate the saddle. The training goal was to teach him to stand still while being saddled, cinched and loaded without fussing around. Especially the standing still to close the cinch was the main criteria because he would move whenever I took a step back or bend down. I also developed a cue that he could give me that he was able to accept the saddle. You will see in the videos that I start with holding the saddle up over his back and wait until he lowes his head a little bit before I click and treat. The head lowering will become his cue to tell me "I'm prepared, go ahead!"

The steps I needed to take to teach him that can also be used - with modifications as needed - with tame goats.

Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5v4KMGSHE8

Part 2, one day later
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPn2_5hGudo

Part 3, fifth training day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8UQr67qJI
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Sabine from Germany
[Image: zoVgi.gif]

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#3
(07-13-2016, 01:20 AM)Sanhestar Wrote: Thanks! This is great. Exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for. I'm actually a dog trainer so I'm very familiar with clicker training. 
~~~
Anna and Co.
Thunder Mountain Central Asian Shepherd Dogs
Working Livestock Guardian & Personal Protection Dogs
https://www.facebook.com/ThunderMountain...epherdDogs
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#4
you're welcome
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Sabine from Germany
[Image: zoVgi.gif]

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#5
Casdog1, I hope you don't mind if I move this thread down to the training section. The support section is more for technical problems with the website. I'll move it later after you see this post so you don't think it disappeared.

I've only had one goat that had to get used to the pack, and that's my shy boy, Sputnik. Everyone else accepted it without so much as a second glance. I took a rather different approach than Sabine. I spent all of Sputnik's life trying to bond with him, but he was not only still shy but also had a rather violent aversion to being touched, particularly behind the shoulder. He's always loved treats so I used food and never petting or scratching as a reward. Goats that like to be touched can be petted and scratched as a reward, so know your animal. I did not slowly work Sputnik up to accepting the saddle--I tried that approach and got nowhere at all. In fact, I was making him worse. So I switched to a more high-handed approach. I tied him fairly short with a halter so I could control his head and so he couldn't whack me with his horns. Butting is Sputnik's "go-to" defense mechanism when he feels threatened but can't flee, so I took that away from him first thing. I did not spend any time petting him or rubbing him with the saddle since he doesn't like to be touched and I wanted to respect that. He had learned the "Whoa!" command previously and he also was quite familiar with being tied by a halter, so I knew that he would not be scared by the restraint and I also knew that he *could* stand when told "Whoa." Then I set the saddle on his back and cinched it down snug but not tight. He danced around at first and it took him almost no time at all to figure out that if he squished himself hard against the fence I couldn't place the saddle properly and would have to start over. To fix this I went around to Sputnik's tail, wedged myself between his hindquarters and the fence and physically made him move while using the voice command "Step over!" Then I praised and gave a treat. Once he was standing where I wanted him I said, "Whoa!", gave a treat, and began again. He will still occasionally squish himself against a fence, but it's rare now, and generally only when we haven't practiced for a while.

Once Sputnik was saddled (or harnessed in our case), I rewarded and walked him around and had him do a few commands with the stuff on so he could get comfortable wearing it. When I first had a saddle on him I let him out to browse with the other goats while wearing it so he could learn that it's no big deal. Sputnik was physically shaking from fear when I first put the saddle on him, and I was a little afraid that I might traumatize him, but I quickly discovered that what Sputnik really needed was a firm, confident hand. The more I took it easy on him, pussyfooted around, tried not to startle him, etc. the more nervous and disobedient he became. My fear of startling him was startling him! I don't believe in intimidating an animal into obedience, but some animals definitely need a bold, confident leader who will tell them what to do and then make them do it even if they don't want to at first. Once I made it clear to Sputnik that I wasn't afraid of his fear and that nothing I did actually hurt him, it was like a switch went on in his head and he suddenly started trusting me. It's a process, of course, and once in a while he still reverts to his spooky old anti-social self, but for the most part he now likes to be with me, he comes eagerly when called, follows me around, and even likes to be scratched a little bit (something I thought could never happen). He no longer startles at all when being saddled or harnessed, and he seems to really enjoy having a job. He believes that since I'm strong and confident enough to be his boss, I must be strong and confident enough to protect him from the things that make him afraid, and it's made him a much bolder, happier, and friendlier goat.

I also have worked with friends' goats who refused to accept a saddle because they were spoiled and aggressive. They weren't afraid of the saddle, but they bucked and jumped and tried to butt when approached with it. It was not pain related--it was disrespect for people that caused these goats to behave poorly when asked to accept something new in their lives. One of them was so bad I told my friend I wasn't going to work with him until she had gentled him properly and taught him some manners. He was huge and dangerous and she didn't even realize it until we pushed him out of his comfort zone a little bit by introducing a harness. Another goat was only a little spoiled and he settled the minute we put a halter on him to control his head and then made him stand and accept the saddle. The second we had control of his head, he realized we had control of his horns and of his attitude and he wisely settled right down.

Think about why your goats are not accepting the equipment and then go from there. Distrust, disrespect, or discomfort are usually the culprits. Make sure your equipment fits properly and is placed correctly--not riding up on the shoulder blades, pinching the withers, or banging the hip bones. Distrust is usually fairly obvious and can be overcome by confident, consistent handling, clear instructions, and frequent rewards. Disrespect can be a lot more subtle, especially since we all have blind spots where our beloved animals are concerned. The little sideways glances, shoulder brushes, and tipped horns can go completely unnoticed as innocent accidents or playful high spirits until it comes out in an aggressive refusal to accept being told what to do (i.e. stand tied, wear a saddle, etc.). Once you figure out the exact source of your trouble you'll have an easier time solving the problem.
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#6
I want to clarify that Sputnik's fear of the saddle (and other things) was a secondary fear. His real fear was of being leaderless. Sputnik is near the bottom of the pecking order in my herd and he looks to goats like Cuzco, Finn, and his mother Petunia as his leaders. He did not see me as a leader and therefore it didn't matter what I introduced to him--he was scared of it by default because I was not his leader. No amount of positive reinforcement addressed his fear of the equipment because it wasn't actually the equipment he feared, and my rewards were not enough to convince him that I was in charge. I realized that my cautious "lets not scare Sputnik" movements were completely opposite to the actions of a leader and therefore I was actually reinforcing his fear rather than helping him overcome it. When I took him in hand, tied his head up, made him tolerate being handled, made him stand still to be saddled, etc. he suddenly became confident that I was a leader. Alpha goats push their subordinates around and tell them what to do and where to go. I made the mistake of thinking that if I pushed on Sputnik he would fear me even more and be harder than ever to approach and work with. The opposite turned out to be true. Once I started pushing Sputnik around a little and showing him who was boss, he suddenly realized not only that I should be obeyed, but more importantly that I could be trusted. I've known this about horses for a long time, but somehow it didn't translate to goats until this spring when I hit a wall with Sputnik's training and was forced to change tactics. The goat I have now is almost unrecognizable compared to the goat I had six months ago. He actually likes me now and not just because I have cookies. He likes me because I'm his leader.
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#7
(07-13-2016, 11:13 AM)Nanno Wrote: Casdog1, I hope you don't mind if I move this thread down to the training section. The support section is more for technical problems with the website. I'll move it later after you see this post so you don't think it disappeared. 
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No problem. I'm sorry, I wasn't sure where to post it. 
~~~
Anna and Co.
Thunder Mountain Central Asian Shepherd Dogs
Working Livestock Guardian & Personal Protection Dogs
https://www.facebook.com/ThunderMountain...epherdDogs
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