Decent Mineral Mix 16/8 (2:1 ratio)

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Unless you have a loose mineral mix custom made, its pretty much impossible to find a mix that is worth buying. What makes the hunt so difficult is to find a mix that has the right levels for goats and made from the right base minerals. Cheap is usually the key with most mixes. And you get what you pay for. Most mixes have sulfate and oxide based minerals. These are the cheapest forums and also the least effective. Neither of these bases has the carrier molecule that allows the body to absorb the mineral. So most just pass through the system. Our mineral mix was a premix. Meaning that it was suppose to be mixed with salt but we feed it straight. And even at concentrated levels in the mix, our blood analysis on our goats showed very low levels in 3 of the 4 main minerals goats need. That is because it was strictly a sulfate / oxide based mix. This is why we now do bi annually multimin 90 injections.

But the other day Nebs was asking about a mineral mix he found and I didnt like so I told him Id look around. And I happened upon a decent mix. It offers decent levels of everything with 2 different bases for some of the minerals. Id still suggest supplementing with copper bolus and bo-se shots OR the multimin 90. But I like this mix and we will be using it now as well to back up the mm90 shot. Here are some links. Its a payback product. Just thought Id post this in case anyone is still looking for a decent loose mineral.

http://paybacknutrition.com/productinfor...lPlus.html

http://www.paybackfeeds.com/tag_book/doc...inPlus.pdf

http://paybacknutrition.com/dealerlocator.html

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Had Matt the vet out today to look at a couple of does that we suspected had pneumonia, and both indeed do. But while he was here we got into talking about this mineral mix. He didnt know that CHS had made a balanced goat mineral mix but had been using the CHS (Payback) sheep mix for his goats and sheep but was happy to see it. He has been to a number of CHS seminars and confirmed that the amino acid complex bases where outstanding. Its in fact CHSs calm to fame as on of the very few companies that broke away from the sulfate and oxide based minerals. They scientifically set out to make better mineral mixes that are actually effective.

Well after showing him the label (links above) he informed us we didnt need to use the Multimin90 shots because the amino based minerals are so well absorbed. We will still keep up with the twice a year bo-se shots as mixes all use the same non organic selenium base and this mineral mix only has 1/3 of our old premix. So kinda exciting to have Matt confirm that this is really a good mix. I have had out two, 3 gallon buckets of minerals out. One of our old premix and one of this CHS brand. I wanted to see if the animals would naturally prefer the mix that works better. And they do! There is maybe 2 or 3 inches of the old mix gone. But the new mix is nearly half gone already. So either their bodies are telling them its better or they enjoy the flavor better. Or maybe both. I tried them both (I always try everything I expect the goats to consume) and they both tasted about the same.

So I will be updated my website with links to this mineral mix. Just wanted to swing by and tell my fellow pack goat peeps, this is indeed a great mix and if you can find it in your area, its well worth it. Dealer locator link also above.

[Nanno]

Thanks for the info. That mineral is not available anywhere near me, but I wonder if one of the feed stores in Pueblo would consider stocking it. I'm currently using Purina goat blocks, and my goats LOVE them, but at the rate they disappear I'd love to find a better (and hopefully somewhat cheaper!) option. The Purina blocks are either a little too tasty or a little too crumbly. Even with all the minerals my goats consume, I still have to copper bolus a couple of times a year. I've read that selenium can block copper absorption, and we definitely have a lot of selenium around here. In my case it's probably a good thing Purina uses an oxide based selenium in their mix since I don't really want my goats absorbing even more of that stuff.

[Nanno]

Hmm... I was just doing a little research and realized that the copper boluses I use are actually copper oxide. Not very helpful, is it?

So Dave, where did you get the research about goats not absorbing oxide and sulfate-based minerals? I'd love to start using Multimin 90 except that I'm nervous about adding any selenium to my goats' diet. It probably wouldn't hurt during certain times of the year, but during other times it could be deadly. Unfortunately, without doing blood tests I'm not sure I'd know when it was safe and when it wasn't. It's entirely possible my goats could be low on selenium during the winter (depending on where my hay came from) and high in the spring and/or summer. As far as I know, rain and drought patterns change the selenium content of our forage from year to year. From my understanding, hay cut from one field can be high or low in selenium depending on the exact soil it's cut from since the selenium lies in pockets. Also (as far as I know), hay cut from the exact same patch of ground can be low in selenium one year and toxic the next depending on that year's climate.

The year I lost my horse to selenium poisoning, many other horses either died or became ill from selenium toxicity in pastures they'd grazed in for years. A long drought caused the grass and weeds to form very deep roots into the subsoil (where the selenium layer is), and when we finally had an early wet spring, those plants sucked the selenium right up and caused all kinds of problems with the livestock. Without doing blood tests before every mineral injection, I'd never know if adding selenium to my goats' diet might be dangerous. Kinda tricky. I don't know of any minerals or mineral injections with low or no selenium. Only a few places in the country deal with high levels like we have here. And like I said, depending on that year's climate, we could actually be low.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

I actually got to talk with a CHS (payback) nutritionalist today at the 4H goat event. They brought him in to speak. Matt the vet also showed up to talk. So I got conformation on all the research I did. I cant tell you where I found it but I was researching minerals for many many months. I didnt do any bookmarks or take notice of where I was getting my info other then it was research sites and scientific sites. Sorry I cant point you in the right direction.

The rep conformed the following. That upwards of 80% of all oxide and sulfate based minerals pass through the system (not just goats but any animal or even human so if you are taking daily vitamins, check to see if they are either one of these bases). I still cant relate back exactly why other then they are missing a molecule that allows them to bind to something that then allows them to be absorbed. The amino acid base allows for full absorption. Thats why the above mineral mix is so good. It can take months for an animal when switched to this mineral mix to get their levels back up to a normal level. Another thing the rep said is that when one of these minerals is off, it can restrict the effectiveness of the others as well because they all need to work in conjunction with each other. This is why you will see multiple symptoms like being more susceptible to illness, worms, anemia, rough skin and coats, poor hoof growth, poor digestive tract and stomach functions and so on. Matt concurred that the animals that he see that are getting the correct minerals are far less likely to have issue and the ones that do have an issue dont usually have multiple issues. Like this year we had several does come down with uterine infections as well as pneumonia after kidding. This is because they were so low in their mineral levels that their bodies couldnt fight off the simple things that they should of been able.

Nanno, I would advise against using multimin 90 in your area. Once we get the animals upto normal levels, we have been advised by the vet to not use it anymore either cept in lower amounts (1/4 to 1/2 cc) before breeding and then again before kidding. But thats because we are in a major low selenium area and the selenium level in this mix is still low enough to warrant it. If you cant get CHS in your area, Id call around to all the feed stores within a couple of hours driving distance and see what brands they carry. That way you can look up the analysis read out on each and see if you can get a better mix. You should also be able to find copper boluses that have the little rods and are not oxide based. For zinc, you might pick up some pills from a drug store. I personally take Pharmassure zinc tablets once a day. I get them from Rite Aid. They are zinc gluconate. 50mg / 333% of my daily value. Kinda a pain in the but to give your goats one a day but doable.

[michael]

Crazy, we just had the same nutrition seminar. I guess It really didn't hit me just how important these minerals are. After the seminar we decided to switch but due to my work schedule I had to go to a different CHS, they only had purina so I bought it and figured it can't be that bad it says goats on it after all. Now that we have a few problems here and reading your great write up on this I'm not going go mess with anything else. Thanks Dave. We are another very low selenium area, should we give everyone a multimin 90 to kick start them?

[Nanno]

I kind of wonder what sort of natural foods might contain the minerals goats need? Do certain plants contain more copper or iron, for example? It seems that these would be more readily absorbed than most of the minerals concocted in a lab.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Hey Nanno, I looked into the copasure boluses and you are right they are oxide based. But its ok because its slowly dissolving a little at a time. Being oxide based helps to prevent toxicity as well. So although most will pass through, they are still getting a daily amount. So in this case, being oxide base is preferred and safer.

http://theikga.org/copper_bolus_study_in_goats.html

Here is an interesting study I came across. There is a significant reduction in parasite egg count after bolusing.

[Nanno]

Well that's good to know about the copper boluses at least. I've got a healthy respect for mineral overdoses after what happened to my horse. I'm using the UltraCruz boluses, but they're the exact same thing as CopaSure.

I'd heard that copper helps with parasite reduction, but I've never really had opportunity to test that out myself. Because of our dry climate, we're blessed with very few parasite problems in my neck of the woods. Add to that the fact that my goats spend most of their time roaming around 40 acres of clean browse, and the fact that I move their pens to clean ground a few times a year, and we've never had any parasite problems at all. Every so often I take fecal samples to the vet and so far they've never found anything for me to treat.

[michael]

That sounds like goat paradise Nanno.