Chat
07-22-2016, 10:47 PM
I'm sorry I was so short with my reply earlier - I was on the way out and realise that I should have taken the time later to reply.
Anyway - failing to response in detail kept me thinking about your problems and made me anticipate this find - from the horse world - much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7jWgWHZCPY
Also check out the video no. 5 about the panic system.
In goats, and I found especially in very small groups (no more then three animals), the tendency to be afraid outside of familiar surroundings is very easily triggered. Goats are herd animals and live in groups. They take comfort from living in that group and the safety in numbers.
In your case you might think that you have two goats while at the moment you have one goat and her kid, placing the mother in the very stressfull situation of being solely in charge of her safety and the safety of her offspring without the backup of a herd which would have sentinel animals that keep watch and warn the group and "warrior" animals that would stand between a predator and younger animals.
If it's still available I recommend "The Packgoat" in which the author describes five distinct positions (sentinels, leader, a "collector", etc.) within a herd structure. Your goat has to fill all five positions.
Different from horses, goats will not spook and run, they will freeze when something arouses their suspicion and then decide wether or not to sprint a short distance (preferably to higher ground) for a better defenseable position. If you like, watch this clip from the BBC series "Life" about how a week-old ibex kid escapes a fox (you have to let the video run for a few minutes but it's well worth it).
https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/vie...ubian-Ibex
I believe that the video shows very clearly the way goats defend themselves: they head for higher ground and then "face-off" the predator. In a group you would see the same short sprint and then the facing-off by the group forming a circle, older bucks on the outside, younger and low-ranking animals on the inside.
OK, making the connection to the fear and panic system described in the horse videos. Goats - as all mammals - have the same neuropathways in their brain but they express these emotions a bit differently. They can't afford to flee headless because in their original environment that would kill them faster than any predator. But this doesn't mean that the systems aren't triggered by similar environmental cues.
I have also found that horses and goats very clearly understand the concept of a fence - a border to a territory in which they are safe. Moving outside the fence will highten the stress level unless the animal has learned that interesting and rewarding things happen outside. They are also on a much higher level of alertness the smaller the group is. I have therefore almost stopped to take out less than three animals in a packstring. Two can be fine but if you have a goat that has a personality that is easily spooked, two don't work very well.
I think that you are on a good way with your goats but need to consider that your goat mummy still has a hightened stress level when being outside with you and the kid. The kid is easier to train because it still relies on her mother and you to keep her safe.
When anxious, either standing still = freezing or moving aliviates the anxiety. Your goats - depending on their level of training - when being out with you and don't stand still are either eager to go and explore and are fussing because of that (excitement also needs to move) or want to go back to the safe environment of barn and paddock after a walk which is still triggering the fear and or panic system at some level and therefore can't stand still.
For teaching them to stand and wait I would observe them when leaving and coming back, looking for signs of stress release: head lowering, deep breaths and start the training to stand still at THAT distance. This can be in the beginning just a few meters away from the paddock doors.
But an animal that is anxious (or over excited) can't learn. You might be able to correct it - deepening a state that is referred to as "learned helplessness" - but you can't teach it the behaviour you want.
Without having seen your goats and you I can only speculate that the mothers "inability" to be clicker trained is also related to her mental state. You can't teach with positive reinforcement when the brain is set up for fear/excitement. You need to get the mother to a place (mentally and geographically, meaning a real place on/near your estate) where she is still able to learn.
And yes, you can use a whip to move her forward and you can use the whip or a swirling rope to restrain that forward movement. You will get results because any animal will move away from pain. And this will be the only thing the animal will have learned - to move away from a painful stimulus and to no longer show the behaviour that has caused the pain. As you mentioned that you clicker train the younger goat I decided to write about some of the background you need to know when clicker training which, I know, is controversal to common training methods.
So, not wanting the let you hang. here are a few ideas how I would teach them:
- Start at a place where the animal can learn = is calm and responsive
- giving to pressure: apply the lightest pressure possible and WAIT. The first instance you see the IDEA of giving into the pressure - click and treat. DON'T escalate the pressure. This is like shouting to a person that can't understand you because he or she doesn't speak your language. Shouting will not give him/her the vocabulary to understand you.
- when you click the idea = the first muscle action you will soon be able to click for a more pronounced reaction like a weight shift, then a lifting of the foot, than a step. From horse training I have learned that it is important that you click the LIFTING of the foot, not the putting down of the foot. If you click when the foot comes down you reward the stopping not the moving part of the behaviour.
- click one step forward. When you get this one step every time you ask for it, click for two steps, then for three, four, and so on.
- standing still: after having your goats taught how to move forward you have to teach them to stand still. Click for standing still for a second (count 1/1000), then for two seconds, and so on. Again, teach at a place were they CAN stand still.
- you might also want to teach stepping back although asking a goat to step back hasn't the same psychological effect than it has on horses. Stepping back in horses is a more yielding behaviour than in goats where stepping back is part of the behaviour seen in fights for rank/head butting games.
- I would teach the goats to target (do you know how?). You can teach them to a moving target which will give you a way to teach forward movement and to a stationary target (which can be a fence post or a gate or also the famous ground tying = targeting to the rope on the ground) which will give you several ways to teach standing still.
- when you have moving forward and standing still established as basic behaviours, install different cues for each. For moving forward you might have used so far giving to pressure. If you have established targeting you have a second cue, the target. Now install a verbal cue (come, walk) on top of either giving to pressure or targeting. Same with standing still. Make sure that you give the new cue first, then the old cue a second later and click/treat as soon as you see the wanted behaviour (transferring of cues).
Give time to respond AND give a choice. I have found that pressuring for a behaviour even with positive reinforcement will not give you the same results then when you add the CHOICE into the mix. This doesn't mean that you let the goats run all over you. You will have to set up the training situation in a way that the animal can succeed by choosing the action you want. But it can also choose to refuse the action and therefore not earn the treat.
Example:
- giving to pressure: I would set this up in a corner. Walking towards you and into the pressure is the wanted behaviour. The corner will give you control over moving backwards and to one side in an attempt to fight off the pressure but you won't need to increase the pressure to keep control of the position. You can therefore click the first ideo of moving into the pressure but leave the choice (standing still or moving towards you) to your goat.
When she is more advanced and has a firm understanding of the pressure cue while you are outside she might freeze up. Give her the cue to walk forward and if she can't/won't respond promptly, give her the time she needs to make sure that whatever it is that is bothering her is not life-threatening and that she can answer your cue.
Yes, this in completely contrary to common training and most people will now cry-out: "You can't let her get away with this!" Try to imagine how you feel when you need to figure something out and somebody is pestering you to do something that is contrary to the thing that you need to figure out. You most likely will not be able to do the the thing you're being pestered to do and will either react annoyed or shut down - depending on how you have learned as a child.
For this kind of situation it is helpfull to establish a behaviour that is very easy to do. I have found and other positive reinforcement trainers as well, that asking to target with the nose to your hand is such an easy behaviour. As you have your hand always with you and the animal has to only move its nose a few millimeter (it's that small a behaviour you ask) this is something that they can do even when anxious.
Being able to do this easy behaviour will brake several cycles: the staring, the worrying, the fear and the shutting down. It will develop into a safety blanket because it is so easy to perform = being successfull = earning treats and the brain can move from the FEAR/PANIC system to the positive and rewarding "SEEKER" system = back to learning/responding. The more you reward targeting the more the animal will offer this behaviour in stressfull situation as a way to calm itself.
So, back to the freezing and not responding to your "walk on" cue and how to use the targeting: your goat has seen something that has triggered the Fear System (and they can see so much better than we!) and therefore the behaviour that will decide wether or not flight is necessary. A horse would spook, a goat will freeze and look. You want it to move forward but its brain is still operating in the Fear System and can't perform complex other behaviours. So you ask for targeting nose to hand, placing the hand very close in front of the nose.
Target - nose touch - click and treat. Target - nose touch - click and treat. Do this as closely together as possible, not giving time for the fear system to become active again. Note how the goat is taking the treat. Will she chew it or keep it only in the mouth? If the latter, she is still to anxious to chew/learn. Look how you can take the pressure of the situation away from her: let her walk away, place yourself between her and the perceived danger = get her to a place where she can respond. This implies that you taught the nose-target well enough at home.
Best case scenario: your goat responds to the target and shifts her attention from the danger back to you. Great - this was the first choice you want in that situation. She has decided that working with you is more rewarding than staring at something that worries her. Now check again if she can answer the cue to move forward. Yes? Great, click and treat her! No? No matter, go back to nose-target. Try placing your hand so that she has to move her head away from the danger. See if she can make a small step towards your hand. She can? Great, you got her feet moving again without escalating pressure.
Give the walk-on cue again.
This looks in the beginning like a lot of hassle when instead you can simply drag her along. But as you repeat this over and over the new behaviour = following your request, turning attention towards you will override the connections in her brain that trigger the Fear System. You are giving your goat an alternative behaviour which is more rewarding that being fearfull.
I could go on but I fear that the post is already way too long. So I stop for now.
Anyway - failing to response in detail kept me thinking about your problems and made me anticipate this find - from the horse world - much more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7jWgWHZCPY
Also check out the video no. 5 about the panic system.
In goats, and I found especially in very small groups (no more then three animals), the tendency to be afraid outside of familiar surroundings is very easily triggered. Goats are herd animals and live in groups. They take comfort from living in that group and the safety in numbers.
In your case you might think that you have two goats while at the moment you have one goat and her kid, placing the mother in the very stressfull situation of being solely in charge of her safety and the safety of her offspring without the backup of a herd which would have sentinel animals that keep watch and warn the group and "warrior" animals that would stand between a predator and younger animals.
If it's still available I recommend "The Packgoat" in which the author describes five distinct positions (sentinels, leader, a "collector", etc.) within a herd structure. Your goat has to fill all five positions.
Different from horses, goats will not spook and run, they will freeze when something arouses their suspicion and then decide wether or not to sprint a short distance (preferably to higher ground) for a better defenseable position. If you like, watch this clip from the BBC series "Life" about how a week-old ibex kid escapes a fox (you have to let the video run for a few minutes but it's well worth it).
https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/vie...ubian-Ibex
I believe that the video shows very clearly the way goats defend themselves: they head for higher ground and then "face-off" the predator. In a group you would see the same short sprint and then the facing-off by the group forming a circle, older bucks on the outside, younger and low-ranking animals on the inside.
OK, making the connection to the fear and panic system described in the horse videos. Goats - as all mammals - have the same neuropathways in their brain but they express these emotions a bit differently. They can't afford to flee headless because in their original environment that would kill them faster than any predator. But this doesn't mean that the systems aren't triggered by similar environmental cues.
I have also found that horses and goats very clearly understand the concept of a fence - a border to a territory in which they are safe. Moving outside the fence will highten the stress level unless the animal has learned that interesting and rewarding things happen outside. They are also on a much higher level of alertness the smaller the group is. I have therefore almost stopped to take out less than three animals in a packstring. Two can be fine but if you have a goat that has a personality that is easily spooked, two don't work very well.
I think that you are on a good way with your goats but need to consider that your goat mummy still has a hightened stress level when being outside with you and the kid. The kid is easier to train because it still relies on her mother and you to keep her safe.
When anxious, either standing still = freezing or moving aliviates the anxiety. Your goats - depending on their level of training - when being out with you and don't stand still are either eager to go and explore and are fussing because of that (excitement also needs to move) or want to go back to the safe environment of barn and paddock after a walk which is still triggering the fear and or panic system at some level and therefore can't stand still.
For teaching them to stand and wait I would observe them when leaving and coming back, looking for signs of stress release: head lowering, deep breaths and start the training to stand still at THAT distance. This can be in the beginning just a few meters away from the paddock doors.
But an animal that is anxious (or over excited) can't learn. You might be able to correct it - deepening a state that is referred to as "learned helplessness" - but you can't teach it the behaviour you want.
Without having seen your goats and you I can only speculate that the mothers "inability" to be clicker trained is also related to her mental state. You can't teach with positive reinforcement when the brain is set up for fear/excitement. You need to get the mother to a place (mentally and geographically, meaning a real place on/near your estate) where she is still able to learn.
And yes, you can use a whip to move her forward and you can use the whip or a swirling rope to restrain that forward movement. You will get results because any animal will move away from pain. And this will be the only thing the animal will have learned - to move away from a painful stimulus and to no longer show the behaviour that has caused the pain. As you mentioned that you clicker train the younger goat I decided to write about some of the background you need to know when clicker training which, I know, is controversal to common training methods.
So, not wanting the let you hang. here are a few ideas how I would teach them:
- Start at a place where the animal can learn = is calm and responsive
- giving to pressure: apply the lightest pressure possible and WAIT. The first instance you see the IDEA of giving into the pressure - click and treat. DON'T escalate the pressure. This is like shouting to a person that can't understand you because he or she doesn't speak your language. Shouting will not give him/her the vocabulary to understand you.
- when you click the idea = the first muscle action you will soon be able to click for a more pronounced reaction like a weight shift, then a lifting of the foot, than a step. From horse training I have learned that it is important that you click the LIFTING of the foot, not the putting down of the foot. If you click when the foot comes down you reward the stopping not the moving part of the behaviour.
- click one step forward. When you get this one step every time you ask for it, click for two steps, then for three, four, and so on.
- standing still: after having your goats taught how to move forward you have to teach them to stand still. Click for standing still for a second (count 1/1000), then for two seconds, and so on. Again, teach at a place were they CAN stand still.
- you might also want to teach stepping back although asking a goat to step back hasn't the same psychological effect than it has on horses. Stepping back in horses is a more yielding behaviour than in goats where stepping back is part of the behaviour seen in fights for rank/head butting games.
- I would teach the goats to target (do you know how?). You can teach them to a moving target which will give you a way to teach forward movement and to a stationary target (which can be a fence post or a gate or also the famous ground tying = targeting to the rope on the ground) which will give you several ways to teach standing still.
- when you have moving forward and standing still established as basic behaviours, install different cues for each. For moving forward you might have used so far giving to pressure. If you have established targeting you have a second cue, the target. Now install a verbal cue (come, walk) on top of either giving to pressure or targeting. Same with standing still. Make sure that you give the new cue first, then the old cue a second later and click/treat as soon as you see the wanted behaviour (transferring of cues).
Give time to respond AND give a choice. I have found that pressuring for a behaviour even with positive reinforcement will not give you the same results then when you add the CHOICE into the mix. This doesn't mean that you let the goats run all over you. You will have to set up the training situation in a way that the animal can succeed by choosing the action you want. But it can also choose to refuse the action and therefore not earn the treat.
Example:
- giving to pressure: I would set this up in a corner. Walking towards you and into the pressure is the wanted behaviour. The corner will give you control over moving backwards and to one side in an attempt to fight off the pressure but you won't need to increase the pressure to keep control of the position. You can therefore click the first ideo of moving into the pressure but leave the choice (standing still or moving towards you) to your goat.
When she is more advanced and has a firm understanding of the pressure cue while you are outside she might freeze up. Give her the cue to walk forward and if she can't/won't respond promptly, give her the time she needs to make sure that whatever it is that is bothering her is not life-threatening and that she can answer your cue.
Yes, this in completely contrary to common training and most people will now cry-out: "You can't let her get away with this!" Try to imagine how you feel when you need to figure something out and somebody is pestering you to do something that is contrary to the thing that you need to figure out. You most likely will not be able to do the the thing you're being pestered to do and will either react annoyed or shut down - depending on how you have learned as a child.
For this kind of situation it is helpfull to establish a behaviour that is very easy to do. I have found and other positive reinforcement trainers as well, that asking to target with the nose to your hand is such an easy behaviour. As you have your hand always with you and the animal has to only move its nose a few millimeter (it's that small a behaviour you ask) this is something that they can do even when anxious.
Being able to do this easy behaviour will brake several cycles: the staring, the worrying, the fear and the shutting down. It will develop into a safety blanket because it is so easy to perform = being successfull = earning treats and the brain can move from the FEAR/PANIC system to the positive and rewarding "SEEKER" system = back to learning/responding. The more you reward targeting the more the animal will offer this behaviour in stressfull situation as a way to calm itself.
So, back to the freezing and not responding to your "walk on" cue and how to use the targeting: your goat has seen something that has triggered the Fear System (and they can see so much better than we!) and therefore the behaviour that will decide wether or not flight is necessary. A horse would spook, a goat will freeze and look. You want it to move forward but its brain is still operating in the Fear System and can't perform complex other behaviours. So you ask for targeting nose to hand, placing the hand very close in front of the nose.
Target - nose touch - click and treat. Target - nose touch - click and treat. Do this as closely together as possible, not giving time for the fear system to become active again. Note how the goat is taking the treat. Will she chew it or keep it only in the mouth? If the latter, she is still to anxious to chew/learn. Look how you can take the pressure of the situation away from her: let her walk away, place yourself between her and the perceived danger = get her to a place where she can respond. This implies that you taught the nose-target well enough at home.
Best case scenario: your goat responds to the target and shifts her attention from the danger back to you. Great - this was the first choice you want in that situation. She has decided that working with you is more rewarding than staring at something that worries her. Now check again if she can answer the cue to move forward. Yes? Great, click and treat her! No? No matter, go back to nose-target. Try placing your hand so that she has to move her head away from the danger. See if she can make a small step towards your hand. She can? Great, you got her feet moving again without escalating pressure.
Give the walk-on cue again.
This looks in the beginning like a lot of hassle when instead you can simply drag her along. But as you repeat this over and over the new behaviour = following your request, turning attention towards you will override the connections in her brain that trigger the Fear System. You are giving your goat an alternative behaviour which is more rewarding that being fearfull.
I could go on but I fear that the post is already way too long. So I stop for now.
--------------------------------------
Sabine from Germany
![[Image: zoVgi.gif]](http://dragcave.net/image/zoVgi.gif)
Sabine from Germany