bad back?

[Marc]

I have a 4 year old 150 lb Alpine male whom I got recently and I'm beginning to notice what I think is a potentially chronic back injury (I have owned him for only 3 months). He has always layed down when I put a weighted pack on him and he is my first goat to show his "I need a break, laydown," but now he is showing signs of "trying to run out from under his pack" (if you know what I mean). That squat in the back end shuffle step they can do when a saddle doesn't fit right.

The reason I'm posting is I am down to altering the saddle (it's a Northwest pack goat) or getting rid of him. He is our most loving goat and a pleasure to have, but I need my goats to work as I have already logged over 50 miles this season. I want to keep him but can't if he can't do his job as I'm limited to how many goats my pasture and wallet can support.
If your wondering why I think he has a back injury, he has some swelling that you can feel on his mid spine and when you press there it's obviously the painful spot.

The altering the saddle option I am considering is because he is very skinny and bony which just seems to be his body style and he doesn't have much "meat" to rest the saddle on. I'm considering adding an additional pad on each side of the spine to both "add meat" and help keep the saddle off the spinus processes on the top. I'm also loading him light (20 lbs seems to be his comfort spot) and letting him rest to see if he needs time to heal. I'm posting this hoping someone has some additional suggestions as well, I'd love to get him healed up and packing. Please help.

[Dave-Trinity-Farms]

Wish I was there to put hands on him. But goats have a natural... funny bone kinda spot on their back. Typically half away between hip bones and center of the spine. Some react more then others to being "pinched down" a typically thing used while showing dairy goats to level out their back. But the swelling isnt good if thats what it is. How is his conditioning? How often do you get him out. Can he keep up with you on at a slow jog speed in uneven terrain? Conditioning before weight always. As for his back, need a goat person or a vet to come out and check him out. And no more weight till you get it figured out. Could be a temp problem that you will make permanent by putting weight on him.

[Nanno]

Poor fella. The swelling sure sounds like an injury. This could be an old injury from "back when" or it could be related to more recent saddle fitting issues. Has he had problems since the first time you saddled him up, or did it start shortly thereafter and get progressively worse? The fact that he's skinny points to the possibility of the saddle resting right down on the spine. Have you set the saddle down on his back without a pad? A well-fitting saddle should slide into place right where it needs to be, just behind the withers and shoulder blades. It should sit solidly without rocking back and forth and it should look level front to back. The forks should clear the spine both front and back. If you slide your hand flat along the underside of the tree between the saddle and goat, you should feel even pressure along the whole length--no bridging or pressure points.

Is the sore spot under the back fork or in the middle of the saddle? This will give you clues as to what's going on. The forks should give good clearance front and back even without a pad. While it is more common for the front fork to rub at the withers, it's quite possible for the back fork to cause problems if he's skinny enough, especially if he has kind of flat withers. Skinny goats usually have high, bony withers, but not always, which means that your saddle could have enough clearance at the front but not in the back. This would shift the weight toward the back of the saddle and onto the spine. If this is your problem, simply adding an extra pad might not fix it since you'd be lifting the front as well as the back and the pack would still be tilted rearward.

If the sore spot is in the middle of the saddle, you may be having problems with the saddle rocking forward and back, with most of the weight bearing down in the center instead of distributed evenly across the tree. This is not uncommon if your saddle tree is too wide for your goat. A fat goat will have a tree that "bridges" and puts more pressure front and back while leaving a non-weight-bearing area in the center. A too-skinny goat can have the opposite problem because he doesn't have enough flesh to support the saddle under the forks, so the saddle rocks back and forth on its center. This commonly causes a rub at the withers, so look for broken or thinning hair in that area. As long as the saddle is rocking evenly, extra padding can help, but it still doesn't beat having a saddle that actually fits properly.

Even if you sort out the saddle fitting issues, your goat will need time off to heal in both body and mind. Depending on their severity, back injuries can take a long time, so you may be looking at giving him the summer off and taking him for hikes without any pack at all while he heals. This will give him time to flesh out, muscle up, and regain his confidence since he's probably started to think that hiking is an unpleasant experience. You'll have to decide whether he's a nice enough goat to take the "wait and see" approach, or if it might be best to start looking for a non-working home for him. If this is an old injury, there's less chance of him healing sufficiently without risk of re-inflaming it. But if it's related to recent saddle-fitting problems then I think he's got an excellent chance of recovering rapidly. You've obviously been very proactive in recognizing that there's an issue and taking measures to avoid exacerbating it. Kudos to you for asking for help right away!

[Sanhestar]

can you take pictures and upload them here? Without and with saddle?

[Marc]

Wish I was there to put hands on him. But goats have a natural... funny bone kinda spot on their back. Typically half away between hip bones and center of the spine. Some react more then others to being "pinched down" a typically thing used while showing dairy goats to level out their back. But the swelling isnt good if thats what it is. How is his conditioning? How often do you get him out. Can he keep up with you on at a slow jog speed in uneven terrain? Conditioning before weight always. As for his back, need a goat person or a vet to come out and check him out. And no more weight till you get it figured out. Could be a temp problem that you will make permanent by putting weight on him.

Great advice...thanks, I'm on it.

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Poor fella. The swelling sure sounds like an injury. This could be an old injury from "back when" or it could be related to more recent saddle fitting issues. Has he had problems since the first time you saddled him up, or did it start shortly thereafter and get progressively worse? The fact that he's skinny points to the possibility of the saddle resting right down on the spine. Have you set the saddle down on his back without a pad? A well-fitting saddle should slide into place right where it needs to be, just behind the withers and shoulder blades. It should sit solidly without rocking back and forth and it should look level front to back. The forks should clear the spine both front and back. If you slide your hand flat along the underside of the tree between the saddle and goat, you should feel even pressure along the whole length--no bridging or pressure points.

Is the sore spot under the back fork or in the middle of the saddle? This will give you clues as to what's going on. The forks should give good clearance front and back even without a pad. While it is more common for the front fork to rub at the withers, it's quite possible for the back fork to cause problems if he's skinny enough, especially if he has kind of flat withers. Skinny goats usually have high, bony withers, but not always, which means that your saddle could have enough clearance at the front but not in the back. This would shift the weight toward the back of the saddle and onto the spine. If this is your problem, simply adding an extra pad might not fix it since you'd be lifting the front as well as the back and the pack would still be tilted rearward.

If the sore spot is in the middle of the saddle, you may be having problems with the saddle rocking forward and back, with most of the weight bearing down in the center instead of distributed evenly across the tree. This is not uncommon if your saddle tree is too wide for your goat. A fat goat will have a tree that "bridges" and puts more pressure front and back while leaving a non-weight-bearing area in the center. A too-skinny goat can have the opposite problem because he doesn't have enough flesh to support the saddle under the forks, so the saddle rocks back and forth on its center. This commonly causes a rub at the withers, so look for broken or thinning hair in that area. As long as the saddle is rocking evenly, extra padding can help, but it still doesn't beat having a saddle that actually fits properly.

Even if you sort out the saddle fitting issues, your goat will need time off to heal in both body and mind. Depending on their severity, back injuries can take a long time, so you may be looking at giving him the summer off and taking him for hikes without any pack at all while he heals. This will give him time to flesh out, muscle up, and regain his confidence since he's probably started to think that hiking is an unpleasant experience. You'll have to decide whether he's a nice enough goat to take the "wait and see" approach, or if it might be best to start looking for a non-working home for him. If this is an old injury, there's less chance of him healing sufficiently without risk of re-inflaming it. But if it's related to recent saddle-fitting problems then I think he's got an excellent chance of recovering rapidly. You've obviously been very proactive in recognizing that there's an issue and taking measures to avoid exacerbating it. Kudos to you for asking for help right away!

So nice of you to take the time with such an extensive answer...food for thought for sure...

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Is there anyone in the Boise area who would consider themselves an "expert" in saddle fit and might be able to help me learn how to do it properly? I'm feeling a little miss informed and not sure where to go next.

[Nanno]

Is there anyone in the Boise area who would consider themselves an "expert" in saddle fit and might be able to help me learn how to do it properly? I'm feeling a little miss informed and not sure where to go next.

All the saddle fitting stuff I learned was with horses, but the same principles apply to goats. Do you know any good horse riders/trainers, saddle makers, or outfitters in your area? Some of these people can be very knowledgeable, especially if they've ever run long pack trips with mules and/or horses. You might even do a search on YouTube for saddle fitting tutorials. I'd be willing to bet there are some good resources out there that can help you learn how to check this stuff out on your own.

The main principle is that your saddle should put even pressure along both lumbar regions of the back without hitting the spine at any point and without rocking front-to-back or side-to-side. To clarify that last point, obviously the saddle will rock along with the goat's walking motion, but it's important to make sure it's actually rocking with him and not simply rubbing a sore spot into his back. (Hope that makes sense.)

Feel free to ask any questions. I'm not an expert at this by any means, but I did take some classes on saddle fitting back in college that were quite helpful.

[Sanhestar]

I've put together pictures of good and ill fitting saddles in another goat forum when the topic of saddle fitting came up there.

You might want to take a look and maybe you can find some suggestions for your problem.

Seeing pictures of your wether would be the best, though.

http://www.thegoatspot.net/forum/f283/qu...ndex2.html