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+--- Thread: The Steps of Goat Aggression (/showthread.php?tid=172)
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Erikthviking - 11-19-2023
(11-18-2023, 11:08 AM)Nanno Wrote: Don't give up hope! We borrowed a buck in October who was already starting Step 9 and he came round pretty quickly with some consistent, no-nonsense handling and a pretty rough "boot camp" session with my 4 bigger, older goats. If you can give some background on your goat, his handling, and why you think he might have become so rude I might be able to give you some suggestions on how to improve his attitude. This is a very old article and I have personally gotten away from the technique of flipping and pinning them down on the ground. Not only is it difficult and even dangerous to do, but it just plain doesn't work on a lot of goats. Give me some more information and I might be able to give you some pointers. It's a rare goat that is completely hopeless.
The problem was certainly me. Not being consistent, letting him escalate without answering it. General lazy human stuff. He responds really well to a spray bottle, and today with just a little training he responded to voice commands. He wants to be a good boy, he is just in rut, and doesn't have a good leader yet. I will get there. Also, the flipping techniques I have seen were all on very calm goats. I think trying that on mine when he needs it would only serve to get me very injured. I think I am going to avoid trying that.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Nanno - 11-20-2023
Yeah, flipping a big, aggressive goat is pretty risky! I'm glad you're already getting some positive results from the spray bottle. Bucks can be a real handful this time of year, but rut is no excuse for dangerous behavior. I find that the less you handle bucks during rut, the better they behave. My own buck is very friendly and craves human attention and affection but I nevertheless try to maintain a professional distance this time of year or he tends to get pushy and demanding. With bucks, friendly affection very easily becomes sexual excitement quickly followed by dominance behavior. So as much as my sweet boy "Pest" wants me to love and rub on him, I keep it to a minimum by giving him a quick pat on the back or a scratch under the chin. I try not to rub him on the face or head and especially not near the horns, and I keep our interactions brief. I'm more friendly with Pest when he's not in rut.
Now, recently I borrowed a buck that was pretty aggressive and had no qualms about hitting people who got in his way. He had really big horns so he could be scary and dangerous when he got mad. He attacked the gate and darn near destroyed it when my does came in heat while I was out of town one weekend. The buck attacked my friend who was caring for the goats while she was trying to reinforce the mangled gate, so I was pretty mad at that ornery beast when I got home. I went out to electrify the gate that night and the buck attacked me. I happened to have a 14-inch piece of garden hose in my hand that I was planning to use to insulate the wire, but in that moment it became my best self-defense and teaching tool. I whacked that buck across the face with it as hard as I could and I kept right on whacking (and yelling) until he backed away and reared up at me, at which point I charged him and beat him over the face again. He turned tail and ran and I ran after him, whacking him across the back as I chased him. He half-heartedly tried to turn on me once more as I chased him, but he quickly changed his mind when I kept chasing and hitting. As soon as I felt satisfied that he was truly running from me without any further thought of turning on me, I turned away and let him go. Any time he started to approach me again I gave him a verbal warning and brandished the hose at him. It was enough to keep him from giving me any more trouble and we got along great after that night. He didn't attack me or anyone else after that beat-down and quickly started down a new path as a fairly solid citizen. My other goats also played a big part in his reformation. They constantly put him in his place and taught him how to submit.
The point of all this is that sometimes it takes a lot to get these aggressive bucks in line but it can be done if you are thorough, firm, and completely fair. I met our borrowed buck with the force that he gave me and then left him alone as soon as he "cried uncle." Whatever you do, don't ever go after him and attempt to make up or be friends after he's submitted and run away. He won't understand the gesture. As soon as he runs away, turn and ignore him completely. Don't approach him, and if he approaches you, be very guarded. His hair had better be lying flat and his eyes had better be soft and his posture relaxed and gentle. Anything else and you need to drive him off again. You don't need him to be your friend. You need him to respect you. That's the mistake a lot of people make. They think their goat is like a dog and needs to be accepted back into the pack. But goats aren't dogs and they don't run in packs. If you watch goats in a herd, a dominant goat will beat up a challenger and then turn away and ignore him as soon as he submits or runs off. If the dominant goat pursues then it means the fight is still on. You don't want your buck to mistake your gesture of friendship as a challenge to continue to fight. If you ignore him after he runs then he will know that you've forgiven him and aren't still angry. That's goat language.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Nanno - 11-21-2023
Quick note on my last post: that short piece of rubber hose was an excellent thing to accidentally have in my hand at that moment! It was sturdy enough to be physically unpleasant to the goat but I could not actually injure him with it. Usually when I have to deal with an aggressive goat I carry a 2-foot long riding crop -- the kind with a wide leather popper on the end. In addition to delivering a sharp but harmless sting, it makes a terrific smacking noise that makes the goat think he's been hit a lot harder than he actually has. I can make my point as hard as necessary without worrying that I could get carried away by fear or anger and accidentally injure the goat. In general I've found that the riding crop is a lot more effective than a spray bottle and it's easier to carry and to conceal.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Erikthviking - 11-29-2023
Update: We were showing some progress until today when he sneak attacked me. Worst fight yet. I finally got his head on the ground and held it there until about 2 minutes after he gave up fighting. He seems like he may still be advancing the aggression. For background, we got him about 5 months ago along with an unrelated doe, wether, and 2 doelings. Being a newbie, I missed a lot of the signs like rushing the gate etc. The buck was very friendly until rut season started. Currently all the goats are kept together, and the buck has an apron that he wears all the time. Since he has increased attacks, my next step would have to be cattle prod, unless someone has a better idea? My intention is to raise goats for food, so these are valuable lessons both on here and out in the pasture with the buck. Any help is appreciated.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Erikthviking - 11-29-2023
(11-20-2023, 12:06 AM)Nanno Wrote: Yeah, flipping a big, aggressive goat is pretty risky! I'm glad you're already getting some positive results from the spray bottle. Bucks can be a real handful this time of year, but rut is no excuse for dangerous behavior. I find that the less you handle bucks during rut, the better they behave. My own buck is very friendly and craves human attention and affection but I nevertheless try to maintain a professional distance this time of year or he tends to get pushy and demanding. With bucks, friendly affection very easily becomes sexual excitement quickly followed by dominance behavior. So as much as my sweet boy "Pest" wants me to love and rub on him, I keep it to a minimum by giving him a quick pat on the back or a scratch under the chin. I try not to rub him on the face or head and especially not near the horns, and I keep our interactions brief. I'm more friendly with Pest when he's not in rut.
Now, recently I borrowed a buck that was pretty aggressive and had no qualms about hitting people who got in his way. He had really big horns so he could be scary and dangerous when he got mad. He attacked the gate and darn near destroyed it when my does came in heat while I was out of town one weekend. The buck attacked my friend who was caring for the goats while she was trying to reinforce the mangled gate, so I was pretty mad at that ornery beast when I got home. I went out to electrify the gate that night and the buck attacked me. I happened to have a 14-inch piece of garden hose in my hand that I was planning to use to insulate the wire, but in that moment it became my best self-defense and teaching tool. I whacked that buck across the face with it as hard as I could and I kept right on whacking (and yelling) until he backed away and reared up at me, at which point I charged him and beat him over the face again. He turned tail and ran and I ran after him, whacking him across the back as I chased him. He half-heartedly tried to turn on me once more as I chased him, but he quickly changed his mind when I kept chasing and hitting. As soon as I felt satisfied that he was truly running from me without any further thought of turning on me, I turned away and let him go. Any time he started to approach me again I gave him a verbal warning and brandished the hose at him. It was enough to keep him from giving me any more trouble and we got along great after that night. He didn't attack me or anyone else after that beat-down and quickly started down a new path as a fairly solid citizen. My other goats also played a big part in his reformation. They constantly put him in his place and taught him how to submit.
The point of all this is that sometimes it takes a lot to get these aggressive bucks in line but it can be done if you are thorough, firm, and completely fair. I met our borrowed buck with the force that he gave me and then left him alone as soon as he "cried uncle." Whatever you do, don't ever go after him and attempt to make up or be friends after he's submitted and run away. He won't understand the gesture. As soon as he runs away, turn and ignore him completely. Don't approach him, and if he approaches you, be very guarded. His hair had better be lying flat and his eyes had better be soft and his posture relaxed and gentle. Anything else and you need to drive him off again. You don't need him to be your friend. You need him to respect you. That's the mistake a lot of people make. They think their goat is like a dog and needs to be accepted back into the pack. But goats aren't dogs and they don't run in packs. If you watch goats in a herd, a dominant goat will beat up a challenger and then turn away and ignore him as soon as he submits or runs off. If the dominant goat pursues then it means the fight is still on. You don't want your buck to mistake your gesture of friendship as a challenge to continue to fight. If you ignore him after he runs then he will know that you've forgiven him and aren't still angry. That's goat language.
This is some good info here. Saw this after I posted my update. Will find a hose or other substitute and protect my space more actively. After todays fight my buck went back to eating and I hung around for a minute or two before leaving the pasture.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Erikthviking - 11-29-2023
(11-21-2023, 07:37 AM)Nanno Wrote: Quick note on my last post: that short piece of rubber hose was an excellent thing to accidentally have in my hand at that moment! It was sturdy enough to be physically unpleasant to the goat but I could not actually injure him with it. Usually when I have to deal with an aggressive goat I carry a 2-foot long riding crop -- the kind with a wide leather popper on the end. In addition to delivering a sharp but harmless sting, it makes a terrific smacking noise that makes the goat think he's been hit a lot harder than he actually has. I can make my point as hard as necessary without worrying that I could get carried away by fear or anger and accidentally injure the goat. In general I've found that the riding crop is a lot more effective than a spray bottle and it's easier to carry and to conceal.
Will look into the riding crop. Went in to feed tonight and the only available escalation past the water bottle (which was utterly useless) was a 2 x 4. I did have to butt heads with him and it had the affect of getting him to turn and run. I don't like the 2 x 4 because of the risk of injury, but that may be the level we are at right now in our conversation (mine and the goats). I want the tools to escalate as far as needed, but also ones that get the point across before hand. Thank you so much for your insight. It is helping me to become a better goat owner.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Nanno - 11-29-2023
The piece of hose was something that just happened to be in my hand at that moment. I strongly recommend getting yourself a 2-foot long riding crop. Most feed stores have a few in stock. Get one with a popper on the end about 2 inches wide. Carry it with you every time you go in the pen and don't hesitate to use it on any goat that is standing in your way. Most does and wethers learn to step back from the gate and respect your space very quickly after they've been hit once or twice with a riding crop. After that, all it usually takes is waving it at a naughty goat or slapping it on your boot or on the fence to get them to fall in line. Bucks are more difficult and take more and harder whacks to leave an impression, and they always need more frequent reminders, but I think most of them will come around if you're consistent, firm, and fair.
Until this fall I never had two intact bucks on my place at once except Rocky and Rambo, and they grew up together and were best buddies. When I brought that arrogant young buck onto my place it was a real eye-opener. He was about 8 months younger than my buck and a bit smaller, and he was significantly smaller than any of my wethers, but he came from a place where he was the only buck on the premises and to his knowledge, he was the biggest buck in the whole world. It was a huge shock for him to come here and find goats bigger, stronger, and tougher than he was. Watching those goats fight was absolutely brutal. It gave me a much deeper respect for how much power and pain tolerance even a small young buck has. Bucks are TOUGH! All five goats brutalized each other for days on end. At one point the borrowed buck was lame on 3 legs because he kept picking fights and getting flipped over. Male goats use their horns to intentionally hook each other's legs and use the leverage to flip each other over repeatedly. Until I saw males fighting this way, I didn't think flipping was part of goat vocabulary. I was wrong. They can and do flip each other. What they don't do us hold each other down for extended periods. Instead, they usually crank that leg until the subordinate goat screams in pain, at which point they release him. If he comes up fighting, they do it again. I am neither willing nor able to treat any of my goats like that!
You may have a harder time with your buck than I had with our loaner simply because you have no larger goats to put him in his place. Having large, dominant, but otherwise gentle goats to enforce social boundaries is by far the best way for a rowdy goat to learn respect. My borrowed buck was mean to everyone, including my females, and that did not sit well with the older, experienced male herd members. They laid down the law and they laid it down hard. When Mr. Big-for-his-Britches came after me, it didn't take him long to submit because he'd already been taught that lesson by all four of my other goats during the previous few days. By the time he fought with me, he was already tired, sore, and very accustomed to losing. Hopefully your buck is not quite as bad as the one I borrowed, and hopefully he can learn manners very soon. If not, I strongly recommend getting him wethered as soon as possible. Other options include a full-disclosure sale to someone who might be better able to manage him (a large herd on large acreage with minimal human contact comes to mind), or having him butchered. There are other, nicer bucks in the world. It's not worth it to keep a mean one if he can't be reformed. They're too dangerous! A lot of folks make the mistake of thinking that a male goat is like a male dog because goats aren't all that big. But if you compare the size of their testicles you realize that you've got more than stallion-sized testosterone, aggression, and libido all jammed into an extremely strong and compact body with horns. Managing that level of muscle, fight, and sex drive is more than a lot of people (and fences) can handle! Above all, keep yourself and your family safe!
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Nanno - 11-29-2023
By the way, I'm glad this has been helpful. When you didn't reappear for a while I thought maybe you were offended by my recommendation to whack an aggressive goat and literally "beat him into submission." I know it sounds harsh and brutal and some people really take offense at the idea of using any kind of physical punishment for behavior, but safety comes first and I think if you use the proper tools and use them correctly and fairly you can be successful without creating more aggression or fear (which often leads to more aggression). I just now saw your last post in which you had to resort to a 2x4 when the water bottle proved useless. I agree that a 2x4, while perhaps the only thing that would keep you safe in that moment, is not something you should plan to use again. Since you know your buck is aggressive, you have the ability to plan ahead with something less dangerous and more effective.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Erikthviking - 11-29-2023
I appreciate the guidance, and definitely don't take offense. I understand that the biggest part of the problem here is me, and getting upset at advice I may not like doesn't help fix it. I feel like the most pressing issue I have right now is having tools to escalate enough without going overboard, or not escalating enough and continuing in the same spot I am in now. If he is still aggressive after the board what is next, a cattle prod? Is there a point where meeting his aggression in kind only serves to cause him to escalate? The lady I got him from is willing to discuss options if necessary, but my plan is to keep goats long term, so I need to know how to deal with issues like these. Sometimes the best lessons are the hardest learned. The back of my knees are taking the most damage. What you said about bucks hooking each others legs and flipping them is exactly what he is trying to do with me.
RE: The Steps of Goat Aggression - Nanno - 11-30-2023
I've heard that cattle prods can work in some cases, but I've never used one (yet). I wouldn't rule it out for a a truly dangerous animal, but I feel like it might cause more resentment and fear than actual respect, but I don't know. Another thing I've heard that some people have used with good success is an air horn. How old is your buck? If he's a big guy set in his ways you're going to have a lot more trouble than if he's just a young whippersnapper trying on his "king of the world" hat. I'm also glad to know that your goats are on pasture and your buck is with them. Many bucks develope terrible attitudes because they are confined away from the herd with only one companion or no companions at all. If that were the case for your buck I would be able to sympathize with his aggression, but if he's out with the herd with room to roam then he has no excuse. It's time to lay down the law!
The best way to keep your goat from escalating the violence is to make sure you lay down the law so completely that he is hesitant to start something a second time. He may be afraid of you for a while, but if you never provoke him or punish him unfairly he'll quickly realize he doesn't need to be afraid of you. He only needs to be afraid of what will happen if he challenges you (or any other people). If you're fair and consistent with him he'll learn not to fear people but to fear consequences. You need to make sure you're not accidentally inviting him into your space with your body language. This is what creates inconsistency, which results in mistrust, disrespect, or fear. If you shimmy around him, avoid his space, move out of the way when he comes toward you, etc. it's an open invitation for him to bully you. But then when you turn and punish him for it you've sent a very confusing message. He doesn't know whether he should fight you or fear you. Depending on his personality, a goat could fall into either one of those categories. Own your space. Walk a straight path from the gate to the feeder. Never sidestep your goat because he's in the way and you don't want to deal with him. Walk straight through him like he's not there, and when he doesn't move, lay down the law and MAKE him move. Immediately. As soon as he moves, continue on your way like he's the least important thing in the world to you. If he follows you too close, tips his head at you, brushes you as you pass by, or nips at your clothing, whack his nose and chase him out of your space. Lack of thoroughness and consistency is most people's downfall when they fail at reforming an aggressive goat. It encourages a goat to escalate the fight because he's getting mixed signals and he's not convinced of your resolve. The other thing we do wrong is we try to be friends when it's not appropriate. Friendship only blossoms after respect has been earned. If your goat does not respect you he will never be your friend. He has to respect that you are in charge and that when you tell him to move away, you mean it! We made that mistake with our first goat, Cuzco. We were so intent on being friends with him that we let him get away with a lot of bullying behavior that we didn't even see until it was too late to truly correct it. He was never dangerous to the point where we could not manage him, but we always had to manage him. He was never safe or trustworthy.
Another tool to have on hand is a halter. I like to halter my goats because when I control the head I control the rest of him, but most important I control the horns. I had to trim my borrowed buck's hooves a couple of times because they were quite overgrown. Because of the length of his horns, there was no way I could do this safely with him tied by a collar. I haltered him and snubbed him up as short as possible so I could work with his feet without getting slammed or hooked. He managed to hook me anyway, so I put a rope around his horns and I tied them to the fence as well. Usually I don't handle a goat's horns. It is highly disrespectful toward them and goats often take deep offense at it, but this goat had no respect for me and was intentionally using his horns against me. Tying his horns up made him angry, but it also drove home the point that he was not in charge of the situation and I could do what I liked with him. Obviously I handled him gently while he was tied so he had no real grievance against me other than injured pride. When the buck wasn't wearing a halter and I needed to move him (like back from the gate), I grabbed him by the beard and dragged him where I wanted him. You buck needs to know you're in charge and you call the shots. The buck went from having to be haltered and dragged for every encounter to being docile enough to be led around safely by the collar. He stopped trying to hook me with his horns or butt me out of his way or drag me around on the lead. The transformation happened very quickly once he realized he was not going to get the upper hand in any dispute. It's amazing how quickly he stopped disputing! We became friends shortly after that and he would come up to me looking for scratches and treats instead of looking for a fight. I still maintained my "professional distance" like I do with all bucks, but we were on friendly terms.
Long term, you shouldn't have to deal with issues like these too often. Once you understand how to interact with goats so they never get any aggressive ideas in the first place, these problems don't usually arise (unless you borrow someone else's headache like I did!). Keeping goats gentle is easier than correcting them after they've developed aggressive tendencies. As you become more familiar with goat body language and social interactions you'll find that challenges don't come up too often. My main problem is reminding other people not to get too friendly with Pest. He is always the first goat to trot up and greet visitors, and it's very sweet until it's not. They don't understand the sexual current that underscores every encounter with a buck in rut, so when they tell me they don't mind the stink, that's not enough to convince me that they should be hugging him and letting him rub his face all over them.
Another thing that will hold you in good stead for long-term goat management is learning when to throw in the towel on a beast that isn't manageable. There are many good bucks in the world. Returning, rehoming, or wethering this buck are not bad options. With more experience under your belt you can start fresh with a different buck next season and raise him correctly. You may find that a goat that is a holy terror for you is quite tractable in a different situation with different herd dynamics. I'd say if you can't get him to change his attitude within the next week or two, it might be time to admit that this particular buck isn't going to work out. When you've had goats for a few years you'll realize that some of them aren't worth the time and effort of keeping when there are so many easier ones out there. You also have to ask yourself if this attitude is one you want to see propagated in your herd. Attitudes often pass down the generations, so keeping an aggressive buck could come back to haunt you in a few years if his offspring have the same tendency. How does your buck behave toward the other goats? Is he gentle or rough? If he's rough with his subordinates I'd say he's definitely not worth keeping another season. A good buck should look after the herd, not terrorize them. Every buck I've kept for multiple seasons was a sweetheart to the other herd members, and especially toward younger goats on the bottom of the pecking order. A good buck makes sure the little one has a warm spot to sleep and a place at the feeder. He loves up your does and asks if they're in heat instead of hitting them and lunging at them and demanding affection when they're not interested.
Finally, in regard to your knees, don't let your buck stalk you. If he's walking close behind with his hair standing on end, he's being dangerous and aggressive. If you have that riding crop in your hand, hold it behind you and wave it back and forth as a warning (like a tail). If he gets within range, smack his face with it. He must learn to stay off your back. If he ever manages to hook you with a horn, turn and rain holy terror down on him. He should feel in that moment as if you are a grizzly bear about to tear him limb from limb and eat him. It's a psychological battle more than a physical one. Physically, he can take you out, but you can't let him know that. Make yourself big, your emotion big, your voice big, everything BIG; then scare the pants off him. Make him turn tail and run for his life. Whack him as hard as you can with that crop. You can't injure him with it, but it should hurt! If you can, aim for vulnerable spots like the nose, side of the face, and ears – not for the head or horns because he won't feel much there. He shouldn't feel like he's in a fair fight. In that moment, he should feel like he's being attacked by a predator and his best option is to get out of there as fast as possible. It shouldn't take more than one or two encounters like that to permanently change your goat's mind about attacking you, provided you are also minding your own space and making sure you're not inadvertently inviting him back in by allowing him to move you around. If you can own your body language, then laying down the law with your goat should leave a proper, long-lasting impression.