Chat
As some of you know I am new to pack goats and am excited to get my first buckling from Dave at Trinity Pack Goats. Many of you know Curt King from the old forum. Curt lent my the book "The Pack Goat" by John Mioncyynski. What a great read. In the book John discusses how all domesticated goats come from wild ibex. John also shares some of his thoughts on how the different species of wild goats (mostly different ibex species) still have characteristics in our modern breeds. I was fascinated with how wild goats have hind hocks that point together, allowing them more "spring" in their step for climbing. All this got my brain churning
I started researching the different species of wild ibex, and learned although Nubian Ibex (nothing like dairy Nubians) were the most common amongst breeders here in the US. Most breeders use them on hunting ranches, but there are a few that just enjoy having them. Nubian ibex tend to be more high strung. The Alpine Ibex is the largest of the different species, is the most docile in captivity, and although have large horns they are more of a half moon shape and not as long. I will be keeping a horned herd, but those monster horns that keep curling would be too cumbersome on the trail I would think. So I wanted to cross an Alpine Ibex with a domesticated doe like an Alpine or Oberhasli.
I also found this cool study in Europe where a small band of escaped dairy does formed a herd with an Alpine ibex buck in the Alps. They found 1st and 2nd generations of hybrids that were even bigger than the wild ibexs. They ended up killing all the hybrids as Alpines were endangered in that region, and the gene pool needed cleaning before transplanting more from Italy.
http://www.wildlifebiology.com/Downloads...ometti.pdf
I located two different breeders in different states who have Alpine ibex. One collects semen straws from his Alpine bucks and sells them for $100 a straw plus a shipping fee. Once I told him about my idea and I live in Washington state, he refused to sell to me because I live in a state with wild sheep populations. He thinks it should be illegal to have pack goats in states with wild sheep because we will pass diseases and kill off all the sheep. It is well known domesticated sheep are responsible for die offs of wild sheep, but I have never heard of a documented case of goats being responsible for it. It didn't matter, he wasn't having any of it.
It didn't matter, because I contacted our Fish and Game, and confirmed no ibex, chamois, tahr or hybrids are allowed in Washington without a special permits, fences, and a bunch of regulations. I'm out. However if any of you live in a state that allows them, and doesn't have wild sheep populations I would love to see this idea happen. Let me know what you think?
![[Image: alpine_ibex_capra_ibex_adult_male_standi...620251.jpg]](http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/1x9096133/alpine_ibex_capra_ibex_adult_male_standing_in_snowy_mountains_alps_france_620251.jpg)
Where the Alpines are pretty much a solid brown/gray color, the Nubians are more tan with the black and white leg markings. I've seen the same markings on several domesticated goats of different breeds. Kind of cool.
![[Image: 32346341.bahrain356.JPG]](http://m1.i.pbase.com/u37/bmcmorrow/upload/32346341.bahrain356.JPG)
Can you imagine packing in the mountains with this guy?!
![[Image: 1b54a14049d294847780a7d23523753c.jpg]](http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/1b/54/a1/1b54a14049d294847780a7d23523753c.jpg)
I have also noticed most of our domesticated goats lose the large nobs along the crest of the horns. Even the 2nd generation alpine hybrids in the study lost the nobs and developed more of a lined ridge like this persion ibex.
![[Image: 392.jpg]](http://www.huntingreport.com/trophy_images/large/392.jpg)
I started researching the different species of wild ibex, and learned although Nubian Ibex (nothing like dairy Nubians) were the most common amongst breeders here in the US. Most breeders use them on hunting ranches, but there are a few that just enjoy having them. Nubian ibex tend to be more high strung. The Alpine Ibex is the largest of the different species, is the most docile in captivity, and although have large horns they are more of a half moon shape and not as long. I will be keeping a horned herd, but those monster horns that keep curling would be too cumbersome on the trail I would think. So I wanted to cross an Alpine Ibex with a domesticated doe like an Alpine or Oberhasli.
I also found this cool study in Europe where a small band of escaped dairy does formed a herd with an Alpine ibex buck in the Alps. They found 1st and 2nd generations of hybrids that were even bigger than the wild ibexs. They ended up killing all the hybrids as Alpines were endangered in that region, and the gene pool needed cleaning before transplanting more from Italy.
http://www.wildlifebiology.com/Downloads...ometti.pdf
I located two different breeders in different states who have Alpine ibex. One collects semen straws from his Alpine bucks and sells them for $100 a straw plus a shipping fee. Once I told him about my idea and I live in Washington state, he refused to sell to me because I live in a state with wild sheep populations. He thinks it should be illegal to have pack goats in states with wild sheep because we will pass diseases and kill off all the sheep. It is well known domesticated sheep are responsible for die offs of wild sheep, but I have never heard of a documented case of goats being responsible for it. It didn't matter, he wasn't having any of it.
It didn't matter, because I contacted our Fish and Game, and confirmed no ibex, chamois, tahr or hybrids are allowed in Washington without a special permits, fences, and a bunch of regulations. I'm out. However if any of you live in a state that allows them, and doesn't have wild sheep populations I would love to see this idea happen. Let me know what you think?
Where the Alpines are pretty much a solid brown/gray color, the Nubians are more tan with the black and white leg markings. I've seen the same markings on several domesticated goats of different breeds. Kind of cool.
Can you imagine packing in the mountains with this guy?!
I have also noticed most of our domesticated goats lose the large nobs along the crest of the horns. Even the 2nd generation alpine hybrids in the study lost the nobs and developed more of a lined ridge like this persion ibex.